At least for the time being...
I'm writing this primarily to address a string of comments on the last post between Tim Hayes and myself. I think the anti-McCain rhetoric is foolish and bad for the country and I plan to attempt to make a case for why I see things this way.
First off I need to address the "Keating Five". I have to be honest that this is something that I had not heard a lot about. I'm guessing I don't remember the Keating Five because I was "11" when the news about this scandal broke. I'm kind of surprised that Tim alludes to remembering it, because at that age I was busy playing in the sandbox still, or playing tag with the neighborhood kids. Perhaps your memory has been jogged recently by certain radio personalities.
Anyway I needed to read up and I came upon many links, most of which were amateur pages set up by far right bloggers and commentators. One of the most informative and detailed links was a series written about the rise of McCain by the "Arizona Republic". I'm providing a link to the chapter devoted to this fiasco: The Keating Five
After reading about the situation through this and several other sources important points are revealed:
- A fraudulent developer named Charles H Keating Jr had a long standing relationship with John McCain's in-laws.
- Keating had provided fundraising for McCain's campaign prior to a scandal involving government seizure of "Lincoln Savings and Loan", a freewheeling subsidiary of Keating's American Continental Corp.
- Immediately prior and during a federal audit Keating attempted to pressure McCain and 4 other senators into influencing regulators to back off.
- McCain was a freshman senator at the time, was reluctant to be involved but appeared to want to listen to his constituent's concerns. McCain supposedly did not make demands of regulators due to unease with the situation. Others within the group were documented as being more manipulative.
- It appears to be a case of "guilt by association". Keating definitely appears to have made a bid to buy the influence of McCain. While the freshman senator apparently listened to Keating's requests he appears to have balked when it came to following through, aside from his presence at two meetings.
- The most damning move by McCain was an attempt to angrily brush the scandal aside rather than be up front about it. Despite this display of his famous temper McCain eventually performed an about face cooperating with the questions of the media & even befriending them to demonstrate he had nothing to hide.
- From Wikipedia involving the Keating Five: After months of testimony revealed that all five senators acted improperly to differing degrees, the senators continually said they were following the status quo of campaign funding practices. In August 1991, the committee concluded that Cranston, DeConcini, and Riegle's conduct constituted substantial interference with the FHLBB's (Federal Home Loan Bank Board ) enforcement efforts and that they had done so at the behest of Charles Keating. The committee recommended censure for Cranston and criticized the other four for "questionable conduct." McCain survived the scandal with a blemish on his record which he has acknowledged as a poor call in judgment.
- On his Keating Five experience, McCain said: "The appearance of it was wrong. It's a wrong appearance when a group of senators appear in a meeting with a group of regulators, because it conveys the impression of undue and improper influence. And it was the wrong thing to do."
- Perhaps fueled by his experience with the issue, McCain co-sponsored campaign finance reform the McCain–Feingold Act which has been championed as a bipartisan piece of legislation. Many hard-line GOP loyalists initially disapproved of the measure because it did not include trade Unions which tend to support Democrats. With revisions to correct this Bush signed the act. The McCain-Feingold Act has fallen under more scrutiny because of a loop hole allowing for 527 organizations to collect from soft money sources. For more info click the link above.
- This is an excellent example of the McCain "straight talk". Bush, and Clinton (both of them), as well as many other politicians have the luxury of having strategists and minions who allow them to avoid addressing, or just out right lie about involvement with various scandals. The involvement of John McCain with the Keating Five is a weak detriment when compared to the Enron debacle and the Whitewater and Chinagate fiascos.
OTHER ISSUES:
I recognize the dissent with his Immigration reform, however there was not many viable alternatives proposed by people in the legislative branch. In the early stages of this series of legislation the Republicans still controlled both congressional branches yet aside from the Comprehensive Immigration Reform proposed with the involvement of McCain there were no serious alternatives brought to vote. The Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2007 panned as amnesty by critics was shot down despite having the endorsement of the president. Mitt Romney, as we know has proposed deporting all illegal immigrants (apparently he'll have to find new maintenance workers for his home). This is a completely absurd proposition which would be next to impossible. We already have a law enforcement deficit in this country. To expect police forces to readjust to round up people who have lived here for as long as twenty years is unrealistic. We have no prison space, they are already overpopulated, and the monetary value attached to putting such a ridiculous plan into play would probably dwarf anything we'd spend on another foolish proposition called National Healthcare (which Romney also wants). Finally, we haven't been enforcing the laws for years, where do we get off as a Nation punishing the people who we have essentially welcomed (perhaps due to negligence and greed) for the past several decades? Now I do believe we should and need to start enforcing the laws and make people immigrate through the proper channels. I even believe there are ways to encourage recent immigrants to return home (such as forcing employers to get documentation). Lastly the border needs to employ top of the line technology to guard it, and where appropriate walls should probably be built. These alternatives to rounding everyone up.... are included in McCain's current revised immigration reform ideas. He has recognized that the country does not support his former plan as written and is willing to work towards a compromise.
If a Romney style plan is adopted it will result in ethnic and racial profiling. It will incite (and is already beginning to) anti-Hispanic sentiments which will hurt even the people who are legally here. This is a complex, multi-layered problem that is not as simple as going through every city with a squadron and putting people on trucks to the border. That would be a disaster, and that is NOT a country that I would enjoy being a part of. If that happens, regardless of the circumstances that led to it, how far is it from the actions took place in WWII? How far will it be from Andrew Jackson's rounding up of Native Americans? It would be an abomination, and for anyone to even suggest it, in my opinion they are ethically and morally depraved. To use hatred spawned by praying on the psyche of bitter blue collar Americans who's jobs have been shipped over seas (by business men like Romney ironically enough) to achieve power, is to take a page from certain history books that I don't find any pleasure in reading.
We should not punish people who were just trying to get a piece of the American dream when we were too preoccupied or selfish to conduct border patrol according to proper etiquette. Secure the border and cut off new illegal immigration like we should have been doing all along. Punish the people hiring illegal immigrants and the people who can't get jobs will go home.
Tim wrote: Why do people say things like "you're getting brainwashed by talk radio"-(moi) ... geez.
Well Tim, when you make a statement saying that Hillary Clinton and John McCain are like the same person, it is worthy of such a retort. Really if you believe that, I'm not certain I can convince you otherwise.
I have to admit, I don't think the country needs any tax cuts right now, not until some control can be brought to the ever expanding deficits. The stimulus package, if it ever passes, in my opinion in itself is over the top. The fact that people see it as necessary (even Democrats) really just goes to show what bad shape our country is in. Something has got to give... The country needs to both cut spending and get more revenue and it can't be done with the plans of any of the democrats, or Romney and Huckabee who generally talk govt. expansion almost as much as the democrats, (and in the same sentence claim they'll cut spending... fuzzy math?)
Difficult cuts need to be made and I think McCain just might be the only one out of the lot (with the exception of the extinct Thompson and the loon Paul) who will even attempt to do this.
Ironically, one of the organizations that have been hard on McCain gives him an 82.3% conservative voting record, which for some reason isn't conservative enough.
The problem for McCain is largely that the GOP base has become just as emotionally irrational as their enemies the democrats. Common sense is the enemy, instead taxes MUST be cut. All illegal immigrants must leave RIGHT NOW, (because apparently we need the lawn money) RELIGION MUST BE INCORPORATED INTO LAW...that one came out of nowhere.... I guess I'm going to have to blame society, I'm sure they are to blame.
This same party holds Reagan up as though he were an anti-liberal GOD but.......
Setting the Reagan presidential record straight
"They have forgotten that Reagan - facing spiraling deficits, sinking poll ratings and a hostile Congress - reluctantly signed legislation raising payroll, income and gasoline taxes, some of them among the largest in our history."
"Two of his Supreme Court appointments, Sandra Day O'Connor and Anthony Kennedy, were far more liberal than George W. Bush's selections, the diehard constructionists, John Roberts and Samuel Alito. "
"Reagan's 1986 comprehensive immigration bill turned out to be the most liberal amnesty for illegal aliens in our nation's history, and set the stage for the present problem of 12 million aliens here unlawfully."
"In other words, a great president like Ronald Reagan made mistakes. He sometimes reversed positions, played politics and baffled his conservative base - some of the very charges now leveled against Mike Huckabee, Rudy Giuliani, John McCain, Mitt Romney and Fred Thompson. When a candidate today says, "Reagan would have done this or that," he apparently has a poor memory of what Reagan - the often lonely, flesh-and-blood conservative in the 1980s - was forced to do to get elected, govern and be re-elected. While in office, he proved more often the pragmatic leader than the purist knight slaying ideological dragons on the campaign trail."
For more read the article with the link provided above.
Will McCain put in constructionist judges? Well I don't believe for a heartbeat that he'll try and nominate a crony like Harriet Miers.
The problem in the "constructionist judge" dilemma is that neither side believes that the other side’s appointees are constructionist. The hard right also believes that constructionist judges support their ideals on issues such as abortion, prayer in school, and flag burning, when if anything these issues would need serious Constitutional amendments or major social reform to become laws to be enforced. I think even John Roberts gets that, I can't speak for Alito.
On constructionist Judge Roberts:
"In his Senate testimony, Roberts acknowledged that, while sitting on the Appellate Court, he would have an obligation to respect precedents established by the Supreme Court, including the controversial decision invalidating many restrictions on the right to an abortion. He stated: "Roe v. Wade is the settled law of the land.... There is nothing in my personal views that would prevent me from fully and faithfully applying that precedent, as well as Casey." "
At the end of the day Tim, if you write in Barney Rubble, you will have helped elect Hillary Clinton (It appears she'll probably end up winning the nod). (AND THAT GOES FOR THE REST OF YOU TOO!!!!)
If Republicans are discouraged to show up... which it sounds like talk radio is doing, it will give further control to a group of power hungry Democrats with a Marxist intentions. Now I admit that some of these Democrats have very noble, good intentions, but in the end, it will ruin us.
17 comments:
Not saying that I remember the Keating 5, per se, George. Of course I wasn't paying attention to it at the time, I was kid. But as an adult anyone who claims to be informed about McCain really ought to know about it. And it has nothing to do with talk radio.
- Tim
As far as illegal immigration goes:
I understand the impracticalities of rounding up and deporting millions of illegal immigrants (between 12-20 million or therabouts, according to estimates). I know this isn't Utopia and it's never going to happen. But why do we as a people tolerate this? Why does our country have to put up with this? Illegal immigration is a huge drain on our economy, it suppresses wages, and it costs the government billions of dollars a year in health care and social service costs. Is there any other country on the planet that would allow this? I am more than happy to welcome people who come to our country legally and have something positive to contribute to our society and our economy. I certainly don't want to subsidize them with my hard-earned money, though - which is ultimateky what happens with illegal immigrants.
Shame on employers who are putting blue collar people out of work and hiring cheap illegal labor. They are part of the problem. This is the enironment that has been created because of our lax attitude toward this problem. Shipping jobs overseas to more cost-effective, emerging markets is a huge problem for the American worker as well, but I see it as seperate from the issue of illegal immigration, don't you?
People who are here illegally often take more from our country than they give in the way of resources. We are under no obligation as a country to just rubber stamp anyone who wants to be here ... that's a very dangerous proposition. But when we are SO lax about enforcing our immigration laws (I don't think we need new legislation), what is the incentive to doing it the conventional way? It seems immigrating illegally has become the convention.
Look at a sad consequence of illegal immigration:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/01/31/a_toast_to_an_irishman/
I felt terrible reading this. This story could probably be repeated repeated thousands of times across the country, encompassing a variety of people from areas all over the world. When people know they are here illegally and are fearful of being sent home, look at the kind of chances they take ... that is a tragedy for them, their families and for our country. I have to believe this story would have played out much differently if this young man were going through the process in the right way.
My point is that we don't do anybody any favors by tolerating illegal immigration. I don't have an answer to how we deal with the millions of people who are here now. But I think most people agree the McCain/Kennedy bill was not a good solution. It certainly doesn't matter to me that Bush was in favor of it. You talk about McCain's current revised plan ... did you notice that McCain very reluctantly admitted to Tim Russert that if he were presidnet and the McCain/Kennedy bill, as it was drafted, came across his desk, he would sign it. So has he really shifted his views on this? Where's the straight talk?
This was not reported by mainstream media, and you can criticize my source all you want, but how can you argue with it? McCain said it!
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/01/27/video-sure-id-sign-my-immigration-bill-as-president-says-mccain/
You wrote:
"We should not punish people who were just trying to get a piece of the American dream when we were too preoccupied or selfish to conduct border patrol according to proper etiquette. Secure the border and cut off new illegal immigration like we should have been doing all along. Punish the people hiring illegal immigrants and the people who can't get jobs will go home."
I agree with your second and third points, though I don't think I have as much confidence in you that people will just "gome home" ... and as for your line about the American dream, it's a nice sentiment George but since when does the American Dream include blatantly breaking our immigration laws, sucking money out of our economy, coming here for the express purpose of having anchor babies and leeching off our government for all sorts of social service and health care benefits? American dream for them, a nightmare for the rest of us, if you ask me.
But hey, I guess my views can simply be dismissed as the irrational and ill-thought out rantings of an angry, white male, conservative talk-show listening, Kool-Aid drinking, lemming dolt with no mind of his own, right? Nah, I couldn't POSSIBLY come to these conclusions on my own, right George? Thanks for the credit! :)
News flash! You heard it here first: McCain will pick Romney as his running mate ... I think it would somewhat massage conservative uneasiness about McCain, strengthens the ticket on the issue of the economy, and would be much stronger than a McCain/Huckabee ticket ...
George - if this scenario plays out, would you then consider Barney Rubble? :)
- Hayes
No then I'll have to strongly consider how much influence Romney will have, and whether I vote for Hillary or Obama instead.
As far as McCain admitting he'd sign his own bill, I'd say that is straight talk... you know.. honesty, and you know what I agree with him.
And lastly most economists claim that illegal immigration is not a drain on the economy at all, but rather a boon! Cheap labor means cheaper costs of goods and more disposible income for the upper middle class... not to mention a lot of the money the immigrants make is spent here. And lastly for all of the hispanics who are and will be born here...and become citizens.... they are the only saving grace for programs like social security when the American population no longer has enough children to replace themselves. Social Security and Medicare work by having the current generation pay for the retired generation. There will be too many baby boomers. If anything, a harsh turn around on immigration will have negative implications on the economy NOT POSITIVE. That doesn't change my opinion that it needs to be stopped, and that the borders need to be secured.... it is a tough decision to make that will have more negative implications than positive.
As for McCain's Keating 5 connection... There's not a whole lot of sensationalism there and I suspect it is why the media doesn't pay much attention to it. But I'm certain talk radio has.... tell me I'm wrong.
As for claiming to be informed about McCain.... I'm no expert, I did read his book... and a few months ago I'm sure my readers can attest to my anger at McCain when he tried to go far right while campaining. I was on his mailing list and I took myself off. But now as he is my only alternative to Hillary.... I'm reluctantly supporting him and trying to get informed. Thank you for helping me. Additionally I feel you'd agree that making a foolish choice to show up at a meeting with a business man seeking to influence politics, (something they all do... this one just happen to take the fall) pales when compared to fraudulant stock trading (Hillary) selling people imaginary land (Hillary) or a constant barage of lies because you think it is what people want to hear (Romney & Hillary> ala John Kerry).
You can't view that clip and seriously believe that McCain is exhibiting his trademark straight talk ...
? how is it not straight talk ? If he was crooked he would have just said he wouldn't sign it and it was a bad Kennedy idea he was roped into. That would have been Romney's or Hillary's answer. Or he could have avoided answering outright! But no, McCain was honest in saying that he believes his bill would have been an improvement over the current situation... where NOTHING is being done. His critics are all talk, but when do they ever do anything?
His bill was largely demonized by the right when it did indeed call for securing the borders, (I believe it was allowing long term illegals to apply for citizenship after paying dues and becoming documented.... which was seen as Amnesty, that was the caveat that people were upset about, although I suppose I may be wrong). It made Reagan's Immigration bill appear if it was written by a bleeding heart liberal. Even if it were not up to par it would have been a step in the right direction, but at the time people were more interested in having divisive politics and so they shot it down.
Disagree with people who say that illegal immigration is good for the economy ... in my earlier post I said it was a drain on the economy ... that may not be a totally accurate way of putting it, it might be more accurate to say that it is a drain on government resources (which results in an unnecessarily high tax burden, which reduces disposable income ... which is a drain on the economy). Illegal immigration does allow for lower cost of goods, perhaps, but there is nothing so expensive as cheap labor ... lower blue collar wages, higher insurance rates and increased social costs ... illegal immigration is good for the owners of companies who employ them, and that's about it ... the net increase in wealth as a result of illegal immigration for the average American is less than 1%.
Illegal immigrants create a problem for the government because they are, by and large, uneducated low-wage earners, which means they generate much less tax revenue (remember they already aren't paying payroll taxes). No matter how much money they spend here, it's many times less than the average American. And they could never make up for the resources they consume - education, health care, etc. That situation becomes many times worse if you legalize them and give them access to previously unavailable services ... because of their low education and skill levels in most cases, their incomes will not rise that much, if at all ... and yet McCain and many others think amnesty is the way to go ... the status quo is probably better!
I think saying illegal immigration is a boon to the economy is a bit of an overstatement - but I don't think you were brainwashed into thinking that. :)
Wouldn't you rather pay more for a head of lettuce or for someone to trim your hedges if it meant you didn't have to pay, for example, the costs associated with illegal immigrants who seek their primary care at emergency rooms?
And how much money earned by illegal immigrants goes home, tax-free? Now, if you nix the payroll tax and go to a consumption-based model (national sales tax), then in theory you might somewhat lessen the negative impact of illegal immigration to the government ... at least they'll be paying taxes. But it's still an enormous albatross choking our country. I know we agree on that.
P.S. I'm not pinning my hopes on Social Security on the children of illegal immigrants. As they say in the South, that dog won't hunt!
I don't recall anybody bringing up the Keating 5 ... maybe it has come up here and there, but I haven't heard anyone talking about it. I mean, it was a long time ago but all I'm saying is don't be fooled by any career politician who claims to be a straight talker. They're all full of it. In my opinion Clinton is MUCH worse on this than McCain obviously - they're not even in the same league, really.
Agree with your last point. And stick to your guns - hold your breath and vote for McCain, even if Eddie Haskell is the veep - like he said, scary to think of Bill Clinton back in the White House with nothing to do! Paging all chubby, skanky interns!
- Hayes
One last thought: this whole business of paying a fine, get at the back of the line, etc., etc. ... does anybody really, honestly think that the average illegal immigrant is really going to pony up thousands of dollars that they don't have to all of a sudden do this the right way? Come on! That part of these various immigration plans is so laughable to me as to be unbelievable. OK, I'm Joe Schmoe illegal alien ... I'm in danger of being deported if I don't report and pay a huge fine which in most cases I have no means to pay ... so I'm going to just remain in the shadows. This fine nonsense is actually in my mind a huge disincentive to report ... let's figure out some way to punish them after we decide to legalize them ... maybe mandatory military service? I know all the service branches need help. Maybe they'll have to serve x amount of years of military service to the country - then they'll be free and clear. I can just hear the ultra-liberals now complaining about that being cruel and unusual punishment ...
Hannity and Colmes... I can catch you guys weekdays on Fox, right?
When I was a teenager I used to think it would be a good idea to test drugs and medical devices on prisoners.
Mexicans already can enlist to help with their legal status/citizenship. Although forcing them to join in the military sounds about as mad as my teenage pipe dreams....Nothing like a loyal batallian....
I think you lay out a poor comparison.
- Hayes
When you make a statement such as "you lay out a poor comparison" It is typically cusotmary to explain WHY it is a poor comparison, otherwise the statement is moot.
But now that you're an enlightened adult ... are you saying I have teenage logic, George? If you are, you might as well say it plainly ...
I wouldn't make this about my statement. You made the comparison, and in my opinion it is a poor one. To treat inmates as guinea pigs and subject them to tests for drugs and medical devices ... which could have negative life-altering effects on them ... you really think that is in the same ballpark as requiring military service for people who have entered the country illegally but would like to become legal? I will grant you that military service can be dangerous, especially in this time of war, but it's not in the same league as you seem to suggest ... I'm sure you will admit that many people's lives have changed for the better as a result of military service ... not so for human guinea pigs ... surely you don't need someone to spell this all out for you, George ... subjecting people against their will to medical testing is inhumane ... I'm guessing that you must believe that mandatory military service is also inhumane, or else your comparison really doesn't hold water. (I'll grant you that mandatory military service would be inhumane in a situation such as Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia, but only the truly looney would go so far as to compare our military and leadership to those two ...)
And I'm not even saying that requiring military service is a good idea ... maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'm sure there are arguments either way ... I'm not convinced it would be successful ... but to compare it to forced medical experimentation? I'd be interested to hear why they are equal in your eyes.
- Tim
P.S. Why would you have ever thought that subjecting inmates to medical testing was a good idea in the first place?
My logic as a misguided teen was as such: if you broke the law then you deserved severe punishment. Coming from a right wing upbringing, I bought into the idea that prison was not for rehabilitation but rather a deterrent. I don't believe that now because people who commit lesser crimes deserve a second chance.
I believe my comparison actually is similar in the sense that if prisoners went along with testing they might be subject for early parole etc. Much in the same way that you propose a forced choice: military service in exchange for citizen status or leaving the country imposed upon people who have been here for a significant time and have established a life. If anything I would say that my teenage prison mistreatment is actually MORE HUMANE.
I don't mean to say you have teenage logic...and those are your words not mine. In fact you have twisted my words and exaggerated my statements to make them sound crude and insulting in multiple times during this debate, however you are the one drawing these conclusions out Not I. I've never called anyone a dolt or teenager, but rather expressed disbelief or plain old discontent with the views that are expressed.
The immigrants should not be punished 10 years later... and have that punishment (Military service or deportation) imposed upon their entire family who could fall into bad conditions as a result. It would be a human rights catastrophe to do such a thing to people who were trying to make a good life for themselves.
Enforce the law from this point on, and track down new entries and punish them. But to punish people who we've allowed to re-establish their life here, years after the border incursion would be wrong, and I think most people stand with me on that.
I believe prisoners have rights, we shouldn't test things on them... but trying to find a better place to live really isn't comparable to armed robbery, rape, murder, etc. I'm sorry it just isn't. If you were in their situation and the U.S. didn't stop you, you would do what was best for your family. Again, we have to beef up security. We have to stop new people from coming in. We should not punish people, most of which are decent people, for trying to find a better life.
So in retrospect perhaps you are right.... there is no comparison now that I think about it. Testing drugs on prisoners, however heinous, is debatably more humane than destroying entire decent families, because we suddenly reform legislation supported by Ronald Reagan in the 1980s.
BTW: Now days I happen to know a little bit about how drugs are tested. Did you know for example that most clinical trials need healthy volunteers, which in many cases are college students looking for extra cash?
Additionally as you might of guessed the goal of a drug candidate is to minimize side effects.
If one out of 1000 people in a clinical trial get seriously ill you have serious problems. If that happens in war... things are probably going pretty good. (Much better than Iraq....or perhaps any war in history)
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0829/p03s02-usmi.html
"The New England Journal of Medicine reported in 2005 that 19 percent of Marine infantrymen and 17 percent of Army infantrymen studied in four units in Iraq and Afghanistan "met the screening criteria" for depression, anxiety, or postraumatic stress disorder (PTSD)."
In Iraq/Afghanistan:
Conservative #s say 20,000 wounded, ~ 3,000 soldiers killed. Out of a rotation of 400,000 troops.
100(23,000/400000)=5.75% total are wounded or killed (about 6 in 100)
100(3000/400000)=0.75% are killed in action.
100(1/1000)= 0.10% have severe side effects in a drug trial gone wrong.
War typically involves murder or severe disfigurment of many of its participants. It also involves total submission to leadership that may or may not have ideals that you personally endorse. If you disagree with the military they will ruin you. War is psychologically damaging to many of those it doesn't hurt physically. Many people can't even handle the simple things in life that we all go through. How are they supposed to handle the carnage of war?
It takes a brave and devoted person to be a soldier, and they should be (and need to be in my humble opinion) people who believe in what they are doing, rather than mercenaries trying to feed their kids.
That being said from the Christian Science Monitor Article above:
"Among other things, Preston and University of Pennsylvania student Emily Buzzell found that Hispanics have a slightly higher "death risk" than non-Hispanics and that blacks have a death risk that is lower than nonblacks - both a function of the kinds of units most of those two groups serve in. The Marine Corps, for example, contains a disproportionately higher number of Hispanics than other military branches and also carries a higher casualty rate."
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